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	<title>Comments on: The Common Sense Fix</title>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1189</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1189</guid>
		<description>I have thus far avoided using the term &quot;laissez-faire&quot; for the reason that it can be interpreted as a free for all, in which there are no protections on the individual. When I say &quot;free system&quot; I mean it in the sense that a governing body secures life and property, with minimal other functionality.

The closest approximation to this system was what was established with the early American form; a Constitution enumerating federal powers, and Bill of Rights safeguarding the individual. Here is where I am in agreement with you: it came with an intricate system of checks and balances to inhibit growth of power. This is absolutely critical.

So this being the case, the ability to exert force on others is severely curtailed. No one can physically violate another, and economic deprivation of property is restricted. Policing is left to government, so no amount of wealth can buy the ability to exert force upon others. Government is immune from coercive lobbying by wealth because it is restricted to a limited set of functionality. You cannot buy power in this kind of system because government does not have it in the first place; it is limited Constitutionally to defined authority. 

I&#039;ve heard the example of supreme monopoly posed as a counter to a free system, but I simply don&#039;t buy it. To think that one person will acquire all property and refuse to sell output to anyone else is kind of out there. In a free system people enter agreements of mutual exchange, meaning value must be exchanged to acquire anything. To acquire land implies something else of value was furnished; this process should sufficiently limit extreme polarization of wealth. Producers will always need workers, who if not physically coersed through threat of force (which is not possible in a free system) must be compensated with a fraction of output. 

A free system is best suited to ensure that those who don&#039;t abide by reality will be out-competed by those who do. If someone refuses to sell to some group there will always be another who will. Global freedom of capital movements ensures that capital goes to those with ideas and capability, i.e. the ability to turn a profit. This motivation is blind to ideological persuasion, race, sex, creed, etc. It is the most egalitarian system imaginable.

I am very much opposed to the idea of property confiscation upon death. This is a philosophical perversion asserting that property belongs to the collective. It also ignores the notion that highly productive individuals might be better capable of deploying accumulated capital upon death than bureaucrats. This can either be in the form of charitable donations, philanthropic endeavors, and even just passing along to children who then decide how to use the capital. To think that any of us have a claim to such property merely because we happen to reside in the same political jurisdiction is wishful thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have thus far avoided using the term &#8220;laissez-faire&#8221; for the reason that it can be interpreted as a free for all, in which there are no protections on the individual. When I say &#8220;free system&#8221; I mean it in the sense that a governing body secures life and property, with minimal other functionality.</p>
<p>The closest approximation to this system was what was established with the early American form; a Constitution enumerating federal powers, and Bill of Rights safeguarding the individual. Here is where I am in agreement with you: it came with an intricate system of checks and balances to inhibit growth of power. This is absolutely critical.</p>
<p>So this being the case, the ability to exert force on others is severely curtailed. No one can physically violate another, and economic deprivation of property is restricted. Policing is left to government, so no amount of wealth can buy the ability to exert force upon others. Government is immune from coercive lobbying by wealth because it is restricted to a limited set of functionality. You cannot buy power in this kind of system because government does not have it in the first place; it is limited Constitutionally to defined authority. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard the example of supreme monopoly posed as a counter to a free system, but I simply don&#8217;t buy it. To think that one person will acquire all property and refuse to sell output to anyone else is kind of out there. In a free system people enter agreements of mutual exchange, meaning value must be exchanged to acquire anything. To acquire land implies something else of value was furnished; this process should sufficiently limit extreme polarization of wealth. Producers will always need workers, who if not physically coersed through threat of force (which is not possible in a free system) must be compensated with a fraction of output. </p>
<p>A free system is best suited to ensure that those who don&#8217;t abide by reality will be out-competed by those who do. If someone refuses to sell to some group there will always be another who will. Global freedom of capital movements ensures that capital goes to those with ideas and capability, i.e. the ability to turn a profit. This motivation is blind to ideological persuasion, race, sex, creed, etc. It is the most egalitarian system imaginable.</p>
<p>I am very much opposed to the idea of property confiscation upon death. This is a philosophical perversion asserting that property belongs to the collective. It also ignores the notion that highly productive individuals might be better capable of deploying accumulated capital upon death than bureaucrats. This can either be in the form of charitable donations, philanthropic endeavors, and even just passing along to children who then decide how to use the capital. To think that any of us have a claim to such property merely because we happen to reside in the same political jurisdiction is wishful thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Traverse Davies</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1186</link>
		<dc:creator>Traverse Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1186</guid>
		<description>See, this is where I am unclear (or at least in disagreement). I have no idea how a free market system limits force in any way. If you can buy the cops (and in true laissez faire capitalism the only police are the ones you buy) you have force. If you own land and you can decide not to sell food to someone who doesn&#039;t own land, how do you not have the balance of force?
What a free market system does is move the balance of power to an informal model, while a socialist system uses a formal model. Remember, Friedman&#039;s theories have never come close to being proven so it is a matter of faith (not logic, because my logical analysis which is inevitably coloured by my perceptions differs from your logical analysis which is inevitably coloured by your perceptions... there is no absolute truth there) that they will behave as he has predicted. Markets are far too chaotic a system to predict with the kind of authority that Friedman and others from the Chicago school claim.
The only way I could see free market capitalism working would be if you removed the possibility of physical monopoly (impossible right off the bat) and made sure that at least the majority of people acted in their own interest, as well as starting with a clean slate... on day 1 everyone has exactly the same opportunities and since in a free market system opportunities are the result of wealth and education you would have to start everyone off with no education and equal money, give them the choice of education. Then you would have to kill inheritance, so that family dynasties couldn&#039;t eclipse the rights of others. Then, maybe the system would work. Kind of like communism works perfectly if you remove scarcity. Neither system has any possibility of working in the real world, and in the real world neither has ever been enacted, but the attempts to create them have been disasters with the proponents endlessly claiming that this wasn&#039;t the real thing, and if only we could change this, and that, and the other thing, the system would work.
Blended social democracy works... by virtue of a constant push and pull, the market types trying to push a free market agenda, the socialist types trying to push a socialist agenda and most people trying to make their way in life with the most joy and the least pain. When it becomes unbalanced in one direction or the other it tends to overcorrect... so expect to see a lot more socialist movements in the next few years. They will go too far, and then they will be brought down when things rebalance. Of course, that is completely ignoring peak oil, which will be a game changer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, this is where I am unclear (or at least in disagreement). I have no idea how a free market system limits force in any way. If you can buy the cops (and in true laissez faire capitalism the only police are the ones you buy) you have force. If you own land and you can decide not to sell food to someone who doesn&#8217;t own land, how do you not have the balance of force?<br />
What a free market system does is move the balance of power to an informal model, while a socialist system uses a formal model. Remember, Friedman&#8217;s theories have never come close to being proven so it is a matter of faith (not logic, because my logical analysis which is inevitably coloured by my perceptions differs from your logical analysis which is inevitably coloured by your perceptions&#8230; there is no absolute truth there) that they will behave as he has predicted. Markets are far too chaotic a system to predict with the kind of authority that Friedman and others from the Chicago school claim.<br />
The only way I could see free market capitalism working would be if you removed the possibility of physical monopoly (impossible right off the bat) and made sure that at least the majority of people acted in their own interest, as well as starting with a clean slate&#8230; on day 1 everyone has exactly the same opportunities and since in a free market system opportunities are the result of wealth and education you would have to start everyone off with no education and equal money, give them the choice of education. Then you would have to kill inheritance, so that family dynasties couldn&#8217;t eclipse the rights of others. Then, maybe the system would work. Kind of like communism works perfectly if you remove scarcity. Neither system has any possibility of working in the real world, and in the real world neither has ever been enacted, but the attempts to create them have been disasters with the proponents endlessly claiming that this wasn&#8217;t the real thing, and if only we could change this, and that, and the other thing, the system would work.<br />
Blended social democracy works&#8230; by virtue of a constant push and pull, the market types trying to push a free market agenda, the socialist types trying to push a socialist agenda and most people trying to make their way in life with the most joy and the least pain. When it becomes unbalanced in one direction or the other it tends to overcorrect&#8230; so expect to see a lot more socialist movements in the next few years. They will go too far, and then they will be brought down when things rebalance. Of course, that is completely ignoring peak oil, which will be a game changer.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1185</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1185</guid>
		<description>Robber barons, feudalism, and other wealth imbalance induced inequities can only exist when power can be purchased. Without the ability to buy power wealth cannot be linked to injustice. Injustice is only caused by one party exerting force upon another. That&#039;s why I maintain that Capitalism cannot produce injustice because it is merely the economic manifestation of a free society. 

The term &quot;free market&quot; has acquired a bad taste for some reason, I think mainly because of association with wealth imbalance and ability to buy power. In that case then I entirely agree with your position that free markets are transitory. But strip the ability to acquire power through purchase and free markets are virtuous. How can a free society not be virtuous? 

People will always make mistakes. The scary thing about free society, for many, is that they will suffer the consequences of those mistakes. Consequences are inevitable, a part of life, the only difference in socialism versus free society is that the consequences of bad decisions are collectivized, and spread amongst everyone (or a politically persecuted class...has often been Jews throughout European history, and is currently the wealthy in America). 

The problem with socializing risk and bad decision-making is that realistic constraints are obscured; individuals who do not bear the consequences of poor decisions do not learn from their mistakes. The housing bust, credit crisis, and global economic meltdown are perfect examples. Large societies can bear a large amount of poor decision-making, but it always catches up. On the contrary, free societies relegate consequences down to the individual level, which avoids systemic issues. People learn from mistakes and ultimately act like adults. That is not a bad thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robber barons, feudalism, and other wealth imbalance induced inequities can only exist when power can be purchased. Without the ability to buy power wealth cannot be linked to injustice. Injustice is only caused by one party exerting force upon another. That&#8217;s why I maintain that Capitalism cannot produce injustice because it is merely the economic manifestation of a free society. </p>
<p>The term &#8220;free market&#8221; has acquired a bad taste for some reason, I think mainly because of association with wealth imbalance and ability to buy power. In that case then I entirely agree with your position that free markets are transitory. But strip the ability to acquire power through purchase and free markets are virtuous. How can a free society not be virtuous? </p>
<p>People will always make mistakes. The scary thing about free society, for many, is that they will suffer the consequences of those mistakes. Consequences are inevitable, a part of life, the only difference in socialism versus free society is that the consequences of bad decisions are collectivized, and spread amongst everyone (or a politically persecuted class&#8230;has often been Jews throughout European history, and is currently the wealthy in America). </p>
<p>The problem with socializing risk and bad decision-making is that realistic constraints are obscured; individuals who do not bear the consequences of poor decisions do not learn from their mistakes. The housing bust, credit crisis, and global economic meltdown are perfect examples. Large societies can bear a large amount of poor decision-making, but it always catches up. On the contrary, free societies relegate consequences down to the individual level, which avoids systemic issues. People learn from mistakes and ultimately act like adults. That is not a bad thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Traverse Davies</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1184</link>
		<dc:creator>Traverse Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1184</guid>
		<description>And herein we have the key difference between my stance and yours. I don&#039;t believe capitalism is possible and that every step towards it that doesn&#039;t fully achieve it actually makes life worse on the balance. Pure, unfettered markets are wealth collectors in reality due to two factors:
1) People do not act in rational self interest... the assumption of Friedman is that rational self interest will cause the market to respond to the needs of the populace... but the populace often acts against its own self interest.
2) Unless there are limits placed on power, any excess wealth ends up in the hands of someone who wants power over other people will be used to achieve that power, often through the accumulation of wealth. Basically any truly free market system made up of human beings will end up with robber barons, but not until it has made its way through feudalism and government has been introduced.
Friedman&#039;s vision is as much a Pollyanna fantasy as Marx&#039;s, and both were willing to go to some pretty scary lengths to achieve their ends (read Naomi Klein&#039;s The Shock Doctrine for some detail on ways that Friedman was less nice than he appeared to be in public). 
Finally, capitalism has the nasty reputation it does because when people have tried to implement it they have always done so at the expense of the poor. From New Orleans and the Charter Schools experiment to the canceled community elections in Iraq to the fishing villages of Sri Lanka, the poor have always been brushed aside to make way for a free market economy, told that they will have to suffer for just a little bit and then the market will make things better. It never does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And herein we have the key difference between my stance and yours. I don&#8217;t believe capitalism is possible and that every step towards it that doesn&#8217;t fully achieve it actually makes life worse on the balance. Pure, unfettered markets are wealth collectors in reality due to two factors:<br />
1) People do not act in rational self interest&#8230; the assumption of Friedman is that rational self interest will cause the market to respond to the needs of the populace&#8230; but the populace often acts against its own self interest.<br />
2) Unless there are limits placed on power, any excess wealth ends up in the hands of someone who wants power over other people will be used to achieve that power, often through the accumulation of wealth. Basically any truly free market system made up of human beings will end up with robber barons, but not until it has made its way through feudalism and government has been introduced.<br />
Friedman&#8217;s vision is as much a Pollyanna fantasy as Marx&#8217;s, and both were willing to go to some pretty scary lengths to achieve their ends (read Naomi Klein&#8217;s The Shock Doctrine for some detail on ways that Friedman was less nice than he appeared to be in public).<br />
Finally, capitalism has the nasty reputation it does because when people have tried to implement it they have always done so at the expense of the poor. From New Orleans and the Charter Schools experiment to the canceled community elections in Iraq to the fishing villages of Sri Lanka, the poor have always been brushed aside to make way for a free market economy, told that they will have to suffer for just a little bit and then the market will make things better. It never does.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1183</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1183</guid>
		<description>I think there is a big misconception on Friedman&#039;s ideals, and even of the pure definition of Capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system of free exchange, period. It has no mechanisms for political preference and unilateral advantage. It does not involve corporate or wealthy control of government, nor any bias for some at the expense of others. Historical feudal systems existed solely because of political oppression, which had an economic manifestation. Chile was a military dictatorship, extending into a politically repressive government system, so despite increased economic deregulation Pinochet&#039;s system can never be categorized as Capitalistic. 

The big shame of history is that pure Capitalism has never been achieved, yet has itself achieved such a bad reputation! People picture robber barons coercing fickle politicians, 18th century English mercantilism-fed imperialism, and other aristocracy-biased political systems as having something to do with Captitalismo. This is such a shame because Capitalism can only exist in a purely egalitarian politican system. And by that I mean a system in which everyone is equal under the eyes of the law. 

As you said it is impossible to have equality of material means. It&#039;s far too ambiguous a notion, and entirely unrealistic. First, do we define equality of wealth at a certain fixed point in time and attempt to enforce rigidity in that metric? This would mean that everyone must earn the same income, spend the same, save the same, and earn the same rates of return on invested capital. Since that is so far from the realm of the possible, and even further from any sort of ideal.

Next, a dynamic metric that is measured over time would still require a system necessary to ensure that the most capable/ productive/ambitious earn the same as the laziest/least capable. This would also entail an enforcement body to ensure everyone consumes the same resources and compulsorily saves the same amount. This is truly tyrranical government!

Even the consideration of such systems of forced social engineering begs the question of why some feel it is acceptable to use force to coerce some to conform to their wishes? There is no set blueprint for how we must live, so why try to force an artificial one? I find human life to be far too precious to waste in social experimentation. 

Rather than turning to a coercive entity to force the world to be more pleasant, I think our efforts are better served through peaceful means, i.e. charities, personal donations, time committments to help others, and even business ventures that create jobs and wealth. Good can be achieved through peaceful means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is a big misconception on Friedman&#8217;s ideals, and even of the pure definition of Capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system of free exchange, period. It has no mechanisms for political preference and unilateral advantage. It does not involve corporate or wealthy control of government, nor any bias for some at the expense of others. Historical feudal systems existed solely because of political oppression, which had an economic manifestation. Chile was a military dictatorship, extending into a politically repressive government system, so despite increased economic deregulation Pinochet&#8217;s system can never be categorized as Capitalistic. </p>
<p>The big shame of history is that pure Capitalism has never been achieved, yet has itself achieved such a bad reputation! People picture robber barons coercing fickle politicians, 18th century English mercantilism-fed imperialism, and other aristocracy-biased political systems as having something to do with Captitalismo. This is such a shame because Capitalism can only exist in a purely egalitarian politican system. And by that I mean a system in which everyone is equal under the eyes of the law. </p>
<p>As you said it is impossible to have equality of material means. It&#8217;s far too ambiguous a notion, and entirely unrealistic. First, do we define equality of wealth at a certain fixed point in time and attempt to enforce rigidity in that metric? This would mean that everyone must earn the same income, spend the same, save the same, and earn the same rates of return on invested capital. Since that is so far from the realm of the possible, and even further from any sort of ideal.</p>
<p>Next, a dynamic metric that is measured over time would still require a system necessary to ensure that the most capable/ productive/ambitious earn the same as the laziest/least capable. This would also entail an enforcement body to ensure everyone consumes the same resources and compulsorily saves the same amount. This is truly tyrranical government!</p>
<p>Even the consideration of such systems of forced social engineering begs the question of why some feel it is acceptable to use force to coerce some to conform to their wishes? There is no set blueprint for how we must live, so why try to force an artificial one? I find human life to be far too precious to waste in social experimentation. </p>
<p>Rather than turning to a coercive entity to force the world to be more pleasant, I think our efforts are better served through peaceful means, i.e. charities, personal donations, time committments to help others, and even business ventures that create jobs and wealth. Good can be achieved through peaceful means.</p>
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		<title>By: Traverse Davies</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>Traverse Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>The thing with Laissez Faire (or free markets in general) is that they are also always transitory. Chile actually went a fair ways along the Laissez Faire direction, before being forced to pull back. In order to do it, they had to suspend democracy.
In basically every case the only way to develop a relatively Laissez Faire economy was to suspend or subvert democracy, and the money always flowed out of the hands of the poor and into the hands of the wealthy. Imbalance is built into any free market based economy because it is impossible to have equality of opportunity in the real world. In the real world someone starts out with more, and uses that more to leverage even more of an advantage for themselves, and in the end you have government by wealth, which looks a lot like feudalism.
Friedman&#039;s theories are based on models which actually fail on close scrutiny. They utterly fail to account for non-rational behaviour by large portions of the populations,  but come one, if we were rational would Justin Timberlake really be a multi-millionaire?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing with Laissez Faire (or free markets in general) is that they are also always transitory. Chile actually went a fair ways along the Laissez Faire direction, before being forced to pull back. In order to do it, they had to suspend democracy.<br />
In basically every case the only way to develop a relatively Laissez Faire economy was to suspend or subvert democracy, and the money always flowed out of the hands of the poor and into the hands of the wealthy. Imbalance is built into any free market based economy because it is impossible to have equality of opportunity in the real world. In the real world someone starts out with more, and uses that more to leverage even more of an advantage for themselves, and in the end you have government by wealth, which looks a lot like feudalism.<br />
Friedman&#8217;s theories are based on models which actually fail on close scrutiny. They utterly fail to account for non-rational behaviour by large portions of the populations,  but come one, if we were rational would Justin Timberlake really be a multi-millionaire?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1179</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1179</guid>
		<description>One more point...I have never known a society to fully embrace the work of Friedman. There have been some that pay lip service to his principals of freedom, but never any that have truly implemented anything close to his ideal. He was a great man who honorably advanced the causes of peace and freedom. There have been few political leaders in our time with such honor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more point&#8230;I have never known a society to fully embrace the work of Friedman. There have been some that pay lip service to his principals of freedom, but never any that have truly implemented anything close to his ideal. He was a great man who honorably advanced the causes of peace and freedom. There have been few political leaders in our time with such honor.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1178</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1178</guid>
		<description>Traverse,

This may just be the alcohol talking, but you have some really good points. The GDP-prosperity measure is a good one to ponder. I hadn&#039;t considered that before, but you&#039;re right, as income distributions gain kurtosis the measure becomes less meaningful. A society with a few super rich and multitudes of extremely poor is not a good one.

A state of blended socialism is almost always transitory, at least in democracies; entrenched beneficiary groups do not ever vote themselves less benefits, and the process is stacked such that the road to political power comes through promising increasing the beneficiary pool. This is at least the case in America. We do not adequately constrain the legal scope of authority for our federal government. It will ultimately collapse under the weight of combined socialism and imperialism. 

The only potential case for coexistence of relative freedom and mild socialism is a carefully crafted, rigid legal structure that delineates the maximum authority of government. As long as it is impossible to cross a certain threshold, then it is reasonable to think that there can exist a minimal safety net. The key is to prevent people from being able to vote themselves benefits, so unconstrained democracies do not fair well here. I have never seen such a government, but concede that one could exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Traverse,</p>
<p>This may just be the alcohol talking, but you have some really good points. The GDP-prosperity measure is a good one to ponder. I hadn&#8217;t considered that before, but you&#8217;re right, as income distributions gain kurtosis the measure becomes less meaningful. A society with a few super rich and multitudes of extremely poor is not a good one.</p>
<p>A state of blended socialism is almost always transitory, at least in democracies; entrenched beneficiary groups do not ever vote themselves less benefits, and the process is stacked such that the road to political power comes through promising increasing the beneficiary pool. This is at least the case in America. We do not adequately constrain the legal scope of authority for our federal government. It will ultimately collapse under the weight of combined socialism and imperialism. </p>
<p>The only potential case for coexistence of relative freedom and mild socialism is a carefully crafted, rigid legal structure that delineates the maximum authority of government. As long as it is impossible to cross a certain threshold, then it is reasonable to think that there can exist a minimal safety net. The key is to prevent people from being able to vote themselves benefits, so unconstrained democracies do not fair well here. I have never seen such a government, but concede that one could exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Traverse Davies</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1177</link>
		<dc:creator>Traverse Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1177</guid>
		<description>The thing is, yeah you can go too far with socialism, but if you look at the history of countries like Chile, Argentina (in fact the entire southern cone of South America), the US, Canada, Australia, the UK, most of Asia, you get a very, very different picture from the mainstream view. It seems there is a balance and the balance seems to be pretty far on the left side of the spectrum, where the economy is most inclined to serve the needs of the populace. See, GDP is a really bad measure. If Bill Gates and a homeless guy are the only residents of a country, the country has a wicked GDP, but half the population is homeless.
However, even that hasn&#039;t been the case in societies that have embraced the work of Friedman. In fact, the GDP has always gone down, even as the wealth has become increasingly imbalanced.
As I said, economics is not a hard science. Friedman&#039;s theories have no proof in the scientific term (of course most things don&#039;t) but they also aren&#039;t falsifiable... neither is Keinsien economics, but at least it has a good track record. Friedman&#039;s greatest success was Chile under Pinochet... until you discover that Chile never nationalized its copper mine and ended up re-nationalizing most of the industry it had privatized because the entire economy had fallen apart... and it never recovered the same median income or standard of living, not even close.
I have never seen a failed state that had a blended democratic socialism with moderately free markets that failed for economic reasons. Chile failed by revolution, so did Argentina. Nicaragua failed due to US interference when it looked like it was going to do well, and didn&#039;t give in to economic pressure until hurricane Mitch. Then it started to fall victim to the usual pattern of laissez faire based philosophies.
Sorry, I do go on... I&#039;m just very passionate on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, yeah you can go too far with socialism, but if you look at the history of countries like Chile, Argentina (in fact the entire southern cone of South America), the US, Canada, Australia, the UK, most of Asia, you get a very, very different picture from the mainstream view. It seems there is a balance and the balance seems to be pretty far on the left side of the spectrum, where the economy is most inclined to serve the needs of the populace. See, GDP is a really bad measure. If Bill Gates and a homeless guy are the only residents of a country, the country has a wicked GDP, but half the population is homeless.<br />
However, even that hasn&#8217;t been the case in societies that have embraced the work of Friedman. In fact, the GDP has always gone down, even as the wealth has become increasingly imbalanced.<br />
As I said, economics is not a hard science. Friedman&#8217;s theories have no proof in the scientific term (of course most things don&#8217;t) but they also aren&#8217;t falsifiable&#8230; neither is Keinsien economics, but at least it has a good track record. Friedman&#8217;s greatest success was Chile under Pinochet&#8230; until you discover that Chile never nationalized its copper mine and ended up re-nationalizing most of the industry it had privatized because the entire economy had fallen apart&#8230; and it never recovered the same median income or standard of living, not even close.<br />
I have never seen a failed state that had a blended democratic socialism with moderately free markets that failed for economic reasons. Chile failed by revolution, so did Argentina. Nicaragua failed due to US interference when it looked like it was going to do well, and didn&#8217;t give in to economic pressure until hurricane Mitch. Then it started to fall victim to the usual pattern of laissez faire based philosophies.<br />
Sorry, I do go on&#8230; I&#8217;m just very passionate on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Viglione</title>
		<link>http://thefreedomfactory.us/the-common-sense-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1176</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Viglione</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freedomfactory.skyrocket.me/?p=710#comment-1176</guid>
		<description>Traverse,

The issues of capital gains taxes and social spending are separate. One does not have anything to do with the other, except that levying a tax on capital gains is one method of many that can be used to fund social spending. 

Capital gains taxes are a drag on the economy, since they increase the cost of capital. And I would be careful to say that historical data supports the concept that socialistic redistributive policies increase economic prosperity. There&#039;s quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, including a long list of failed states.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Traverse,</p>
<p>The issues of capital gains taxes and social spending are separate. One does not have anything to do with the other, except that levying a tax on capital gains is one method of many that can be used to fund social spending. </p>
<p>Capital gains taxes are a drag on the economy, since they increase the cost of capital. And I would be careful to say that historical data supports the concept that socialistic redistributive policies increase economic prosperity. There&#8217;s quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, including a long list of failed states.</p>
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